Is Rank Transfer really worth the money???

[Alex]

Yes...but research on John Longneckers website.

I know various people in LA that do it.

Film and Video Transfers in Northridge CA, Yale Labs in North Hollywood, Super-8 Sound in Burbank.

-Alex

[ekoe]

mid-air telecine, eh?
it irks me to hear people refer to 'film-chain' as telecine. telecine is an entirely separate creature.
irv higdon is currently modifying my elmo sc-30 for transfer @24fps. and i have a eumig rs-2500 w/ a 3-blade for transfer @20fps. if i get my act together in time, i'd be honoured to transfer your footage for you. and i know there's individuals present in this forum with just as elaborate transfer methods as my own. i like the rear-projection units with the built in screens, like the ones i mentioned above. they're solid and accurate, with bright lamps and fast, wide lenses. there's no hassle of setting up projector and screen then struggling with parallax. they're like film televisions with a projection option.
try posting a request for film transfer on this forum. was it pedro and konton with the sweet transfer links posted here? if they won't do it, i can currently give you a flicker-free transfer @ 20fps. in the near future, i'll have the capability of transferring your footage @ 24fps. this would synch fairly easily using non-linear software. be sure to slate thoroughly.
you can reach me @ [email protected]
-ekoe.

[ulrichsd]

I guess most rank transfer facilities charge about $250-$300 per hour, which covers about 7 rolls of film, which would very roughly translate to about $40 for every roll of film.

The reason I am asking is that I was watching my dad's old home movies that were trasnfered to video at a photo place here in Cincinnati and the image didn't look great, but it did look pretty good and had no flicker. I called the place and he said they used some process where they use a telecine projector and record the image in the air (not on a screen). They only transfer to VHS. They charge $0.11 per foot, which would be $5.50 per roll.

The main thing I'm worried about is that if they adjust the frame rate even a little bit syncing the sound in post will be impossible since I am recording sound wild. Some things in my dad's movies looked very slightly sped up so I wonder if they took 18fps and bump it up to 20 to avoid the flicker. I didn't even ask if they could do transfers at 24fps (what I plan to shoot at), but I was hoping someone here was familiar with the type of process he explained to me.

As this is my first project and it is mostly a learning experience I don't want to dump tons of money into it, but I still want it to look good. If rank is worth it, then I'll get the money to go that route.

I'm sorry to the die-hards that end up with a finsihed project on film, because I wish I could do that, but I would have no idea how to add sound to film if I edited on film and have it sync well without a sound synced camera or spending a lot of money that I don't have on more equipment. I have a 1014E, I don't know if it converted to sound sync, or how much it would cost.

Thanks in advance for all info.
Scott Ulrich
[email protected]

[maurizio]

Dear Ulrichsd,
I guess the problem here in the USA arises from the fact that rates are somewhat inflated: in Italy a decent one-light rank transfer costs no more than $5 dollars per minute: if you want scene-by-scene color correction prices boost up to the equivalent of about $130/hr (machine use time, not film duration of course!), which is still acceptable.

As for the reason to use a Rank versus other systems here is my own experience:
I started with a home compact transfer box coupled to a projector: poor definition, image unevenly lit on the for corners etc.

I swithched to a professional lab using a Fumeo telecine prj with aerial image capture system: much better but a little too grainy because of the light condenser between lamp and film that BTW also enhances small scratches and dirt particles.

For this reason and because, being a PAL user shooting S/8 at 25 fps, I like to have all the frame of the original correctly dubbed 1:2 onto the video (which method #2 is unable to achieve, let alone #1), eventually I switched to the Rank with personal supervision during the transfer.
The film I had had transferred was shot on K40: it looked like a televised film from a major broadcast station as regards color saturation, definition, contrast range, registration, etc. It was just a little graynier than a common feature on videocassette.

But at this point a couple of words should be spent on the camera I used: it was a Nizo 6080 with Schneider Macro Variogon 7-80 mm, 1.4
One of the best lenses ever used on a Super 8 camera: and the scenes in my film were outdoor brigthly lit images.

So in conclusion I must say that a Rank is worth the money only if the original is really good, otherwise I'd say go for less expensive methods: once i dubbed my father's Reg 8 home movies with a bottom of the range prj and a decent VHS -C camera using a piece of white paper as a screen: movies had been shot with a very simple and average camera. I was quite satisfied in the sense that the transfer looked not too different from what I see with my eyes every time I project the same film on a screen.

I know that here in the States things are a little more complicated because prices are higher and because there are problems of TV System frequency that require unnatural tricks to get a flicker free transfer, but nonetheless I think that Rank transfers are still the best quality you can get. Once you compare excellent footage trasnferred with other systems to the same footage transferred on a Rank, you'll no longer be able to live without it. See for yourself, do not trust too much images you see on the net.
Hope this helps.
Good luck.

[Alex]

I have a rule you might want to consider.

NEVER transfer from film to the VHS format for video archive mastering.

The very minimum you should ever make your Video Medium copy is S-VHS.

-Alex

[robertshults]

If you're set on digital post-production, I vote for the Rank. Especially if plan to pursue any kind of festival/distribution life for your film. I suggest telecine to BetaSP, and then make a dub of the masters on miniDV. Make an edit on Final Cut Pro or some such. Then you can chase some money people for the cash to do a proper online edit using your Beta masters. All of this is rather pricey, but if you can shell out the money for the telecine, and your product is decent, you'd be amazed at the number of people willing to invest in a nearly completed project.

If,however, you're at all interested in learning about sync-ing sound on film. I can e-mail you a great article succinctly explaining the process by Martin Baumgarten. I think the article is on the web somewhere, but I'm not sure exactly where.

[Matt Pacini]

I have had lots of experience with both film chain transfers, and a profesisonal Rank transfer of my entire feature film, LOST TRIBES, and I can tell you, there is a world of difference!
First of all, the cheap transfer is NOT at 24fps, it is only at approximately 24fps.
Way out of sync.
Also, the quality is nowhere near what you get with a good telecine. You're forgetting something very important, no matter how you post your film, that initial transfer is NOT the end result. It has to go through at least one, and usually 2-3 stages of copying before you end up with the end product, so it needs to be as good as possible, because the degradation is astounding!
You are transferring the film to video, then digitizing into the computer (copy#1), then you edit your film, and output to video for you master (copy#2).
From that you make your VHS copies (copy#3).
Take that video of your dads, and copy it 3 times and see how it looks.
That's what you're dealing with.
If anyone has specific questions about telecine, I'd be glad to answer them. Yes, it's expensive, but there are things you can do to make it as cheap as possible, like making flawless splices, for instance. (I had splices come off, because the Rank is used to trasnferring 35mm and 16mm film, which has more tension). It's wonderfull to pay $250+ per hour to sit around watching some guy splicing film! They finally had to get a big rubber band to ease the tension! And this is a multi-million dollar facility I'm talking about, not uncle Joe's video transfer house!
Also, I had one particularly BAD experience at one of these film chain transfer services. I decided to trasnfer some of my film at one of these places, just to do some preliminary editing while I was still shooting my feature.
I made it clear that this was a feature film, and that they were not to cut or splice any film, no matter what, even if their projector ate the film. They were instructed to just stop and call me.
Well, I went in and picked my film up and guess what?
The guy didn't read the instructions, and to make his job easier, he spliced my 400ft rolls onto a 1200 ft roll, did the transfer, and then cut the leaders off and put it back to 400ft reels.
The problem is, he cut about 5-30 frames of my film off the head and tail of each reel! I freaked out! This was usable footage of my film, that had dialog, that he chucked into the trash!
These people, no matter what you hope and think, are used to transferring home movies, and will not treat your film any differently, so don't risk it.
Just get the financing somehow, and do a pro telecine! You won't be sorry!

[furleyguy]

While i won't argue that professional transfer is the way to go, some of your comments may mislead.

first of all, i wouldn't transfer to Betacam, but rather DigiBeta (why go analog??). Get a miniDV dub of the Digibeta and offline edit in the digital domain on a home computer. Digitizing (which it really isn't, it's just a capture -- although from Beta it would be called digitizing)will not take you down a generation, nor will creating your master once edited. while we could go into some minutae about how codecs work, suffice to say that for all intents and purposes, this master should be indistinguishable from your transfer tapes. i will agree that your weak link is now the VHS copies. but it is NOWHERE NEAR the look suggested by taking a VHS tape and making it third generation.

even if you do edit nonlinear onto miniDV, i would still recommend exporting an EDL and onlining somewhere using the DigiBeta (via SDI) once you get financing. or at the very least, transfer your miniDV master to a more robust format that can more eaily withstand the duplication process.

[Scottness]

That article of Martin's about sound synching can ge found on the net at:
http://www.mango-a-gogo.com/inmyimag...ink.htm#martin

and it may well be on his own page too

Scot

[Matt Pacini]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by furleyguy:
[B]While i won't argue that professional transfer is the way to go, some of your comments may mislead.

first of all, i wouldn't transfer to Betacam, but rather DigiBeta (why go analog??).
Why go analog? Because I couldn't afford to rent a DigiBeta machine, nor do I own a DV camera. I also didn't have a Firewire port when I digitized my film, so it was in fact, digitizing.
Also, the guy was talking about a cheap, film chain transfer, and they usually only transfer to VHS, or S-VHS, certainly NEVER to DigiBeta, so my comment about 3rd generation VHS I think is closer to what his actual experience would be.

It's one thing to theorize about all this stuff, but I actually DID a feature, and when you actually make a film, you have to deal with the equipment and money you actually, have, which is much different than just repeating stuff you read in DV magazine.
Sorry to sound sarcastic, I guess I just have gotten over hearing about a hundred times "how come you didn't just do this?", when "This" represents the best of all situations, which is never what actually happens when you're making a film.
Here are a couple for your amusement:
"How come you didn't just get a Panavision camera and shoot on 35mm?"
"How come you didn't hire all SAG actors?"

"How come you don't rent a Telecine Suite and do all your post production there?"
"How come you don't get a real Steadicam and use that?"
etc. etc. etc.!
It's tough doing this when you have no cash, so I can sympathise with our dear friend, about wanting to save the money & do a film chain transfer, but like I said, they aren't using DigiBeta machines in these little cheese joints.